Reasons Why Most Practices Struggle to Grow

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Intro: You are now listening to another episode of the Insurance Untangled podcast, where we explore the various challenges faced by dental practices due to their reliance on insurance. Join us in this podcast as we dive deep into the issues surrounding dental insurance dependence and offer practical solutions and strategies to help you take control of your practice’s financial future.

Ben Tuinei: Welcome to another exciting episode of the Insurance Untangled podcast. My name is Ben Tuinei, and I’m one of the hosts of this podcast. And as you know, we’ve really worked hard to develop this for you—for practice owners and for team members that are tangled up with insurance on a day-to-day basis. And so we talk about everything, as you know, from insurance to marketing to general business concepts and dentistry. And today, we actually have a really fun, uh, episode lined up here—a marketing-related episode that I want to go through. And I have my good friend and co-host Naren with me. Naren, how are you?

Naren Arulrajah: I’m doing great, uh, Ben. And, um, yeah, I’m really looking forward to this conversation, and I think, uh, we are gonna have some fun today.

Ben Tuinei: Absolutely. So this one’s actually a really good one. So the topic for today is reasons why most practices struggle to grow. And it’s so interesting—you know, we’re recording this in the month of August, and we all know that, uh, the month called September is right around the corner. You know, you have practices that sort of see ebbs and flows or, uh, a lot these days, a lot of practices that are just struggling with growth. And so we appreciate you, Naren, uh, being willing to share some insights on this. So, I wanna start with the first question here, because it’s so interesting when you look online, Naren, as it pertains to growth and marketing. And the question that always comes up from people that have never tried search engine optimization is a lot of people think, is search engine optimization a myth? Is it a fairy tale? I know the answer to that, of course, from my own experience, but I’d love to have our marketing genius with us today kind of chime in on that. So what say you? 

Naren Arulrajah: Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. But before I jump into answering that question, which is a great question, by the way, let me define growth, right? A lot of people misunderstand growth. A lot of people think growth means more patients, right? What do they do? They sign up with PPO plans. What do they get with PPO plans? They want people who want free dentistry—in other words, not covered by insurance. I’m not doing it right. And insurance only pays you 55 cents on the dollar. That means if you’re doing a thousand dollars’ worth of dentistry, you keep 550 bucks. The insurance company keeps 450 bucks. A, because they control your fees. And B, even though they control fees, they don’t pay you the full amount. They only pay you a partial amount. So they’re growing, growing, growing, growing—seeing more and more and more and more new patients.

But their business is going backwards. Their profits are going backwards. They’re working harder for less. Right? So let’s understand growth. When I mean growth, I’m not talking about working harder as growth. I’m not talking about more, like X number of new patients—even when they’re the wrong kind of patients, like PPO patients—as growth. I’m talking about growing your profits, growing your revenue. In other words, you work so hard, every year should be slightly better than last year when it comes to the amount of money you take home. That’s what we call profits, right? When that’s not happening, you’re not growing—you’re sinking. So keep that in the back of your mind as I answer these questions.

So you brought up a good question, which is a lot of people think SEO is a myth. Right? The reason they think SEO is a myth is, you know, like a lot of dentists, you know, misunderstand growth and think numbers, numbers, numbers.

Naren Arulrajah: They don’t understand the value idea between a good quality patient and a crappy patient. Uh, PPO patient who will only do what’s covered by, you know, PPO plans and who’s only coming to you because you do free work for them. Imagine like you’re giving free, you know, five-star dinners for them—who wouldn’t come to you, right? You know what I mean? Like, you don’t need to do anything extra for them to come to you. You guys are doing five-star work, but they’re coming to you only because it’s free. So that’s not the growth we’re talking about.

So if you want to attract the right quality patient, you want them to find you, right? So for example, I’m looking for implants. I’m looking online. I’ve saved up my money. I have 20,000 in the bank, or I’m gonna postpone the car purchase and instead I’m gonna get this beautiful smile—whatever it is, right?

I’ve made a decision. I’m gonna do something, and I’m gonna spend big bucks. I am choosing to pay, you know, with my money. I’m going online to research. So when I’m researching, either you can show up as an ad or you can show up organically, meaning naturally. If you show up as an ad, they don’t trust you, because they know anybody can spend, you know, $5 a click and get their ad to show up—so they don’t trust you.

Versus when you show up organically, they trust you. You are a hundred percent right. Ninety-five percent of the practices, like, die when it comes to SEO—meaning they don’t do a good job. How do you know you’re doing a good job? You’re ranking for a hundred keywords or more. So, if most of the dentists who say it’s a myth—they are in that 95% who have never ever experienced amazing SEO.

How do you know it’s amazing SEO? You’re ranking for a hundred or more keywords on top 10 results. Again, relevant keywords—dentist near me, Invisalign Charlotte, your city name, and so forth, right? Those are called relevant keywords. You should be ranking for a hundred or more of those keywords on page one, which is top 10 results.

So, um, that’s why I think a lot of people think it’s a myth—because they haven’t experienced it. It’s kind of like saying, you know, um, oh, being rich is a myth. Why? Because they haven’t experienced it, right? And I’ll never be rich—those kinds of mindsets, right? And if you ask 90% of the people, that’s what they’ll say—because they haven’t experienced it, therefore, it’s a myth for them.

Ben Tuinei: Yeah. I mean, I could relate, you know. Um, when we lived in Utah, like a good example of that is—you know, I’m from Samoa, a tiny island nation in the South Pacific. And a lot of people have heard of it, but of course, very few people have ever been there. But it was just interesting—uh, my son’s elementary school, most of the kids didn’t believe that my son, that his dad was from Samoa. He was like, "Ah, we don’t believe that. That place doesn’t even exist," right?

And I kind of think that that mindset works to the advantage of those that take the time to research components of competitiveness that most people are not doing, right? And you mentioned SEO—most people don’t do it effectively, or most people don’t even try in dentistry to do it, right? ‘Cause they don’t have a wizard like you that knows the ins and outs of exactly how to do it appropriately, right?

So, kind of going back to what you mentioned in the beginning—defining our topic for today in terms of, you know, the reason why most practices struggle to grow and that definition of growth—what I’m thinking about marketing, is it just about filling the schedule, or is it more than that?

Naren Arulrajah: I think it’s more than that, right? If we are defining growth as not just any patient, but high-quality patients who accept treatment, who value dentistry, who want that beautiful smile, it’s absolutely more than that. So marketing is about helping people find you, then giving them a reason to like you, and then choose you. That’s it.

But we don’t want anybody finding us, anybody liking us, anybody choosing us. We want our ideal patients finding us, liking us, and choosing us. So it is more than filling the schedule. And the reason I think this is a really important question—and I’m so glad you asked it—is if you’re thinking "filling schedule, filling schedule," you won’t focus on quality. You will focus on quantity. And you’ll be going in circles. Every year is worse than the last year. You’re working for less and less money as the PPO keeps cutting fees, you know?

And these people don’t accept recommended treatment. So you’re like, you even stop trying to recommend treatment. You’re like, "Why did I waste, you know, 20 years of my life getting all this extra training?" You’ll get dejected. You will kind of be cynical. And, you know, it creates this vicious cycle. And the people you attract will be kind of like that. And nobody’s jumping out of bed to go to work. They all hate going to work. You don’t want that, right?

So don’t think of marketing as filling a schedule. It’s about finding, attracting, and, of course, helping people choose you—the ideal patient. And then, of course, once they’re there, you guys will do a good job. I mean, I have never met a dentist who wants to do, you know, the lowest quality dentistry or the minimum dentistry. Every single person I’ve ever talked to—they’re taking extra classes, they’re getting educated, they’re leaning in, they want to do the best dentistry has to offer, right?

So, I mean—mm-hmm. So I feel like, you know, but unfortunately this unknown unknown, this idea that marketing is about filling the schedule, kind of gets in the way. It is more than that. It’s about finding—helping those ideal patients find you, like you, and choose you.

Ben Tuinei: Yeah. No, I like it. I mean, you—uh, as you were speaking there, I was thinking about a good friend of mine, uh, the Honorable Dr. Seal, a multifile in Grand Junction, Colorado. And I say "honorable" to respect his chief title ’cause we’re from the same country.

And as a general dentist, all he does is full arch implant cases—you know, All-on-4 types of cases. And I, over the years, always ask him—you know, he used to participate with Medicaid—like, "What is your approach in terms of what you want to do in dentistry?" And he’s like, "Hey, it’s not all about—it’s never about filling the chair. It’s more so about filling the chair with a patient that needs something that I really want to do," like applying my skillset as a dentist, which is—I love doing implants, right?

So he’s worked on that for over a decade and sort of perfected what you just said in terms of thinking about marketing from the perspective of high-quality care, like high-value patients, uninsured patients, or people with insurance that are willing to come to you because of what you do and your reputation, right?

So that kind of leads me to the next question here…

Ben Tuinei: When we’re thinking about new patients, I guess the question is—is any new patient a good patient for a practice?

Naren Arulrajah: Absolutely not. Any new patient is not a good patient. Let me just play this out for you. So let’s say you’re getting a PPO patient and you are, you know, you get them today and they’re gonna be with you for, let’s say, 10 years. Every year they come in, let’s say you do the maximum amount of dentistry on them, right? So you are doing, let’s say, you know, $2,000 worth of dentistry and you are collecting $1,100—the 55%, right?

Do it in year two. You’re doing $2,000 worth of dentistry and you are collecting $1,100. So your expenses are based on you doing $2,000 worth of dentistry. Your team is not gonna say, "Oh, well, because I work for a PPO patient, I’m also gonna get a 55% pay cut so that you can…" because you are getting a pay cut. Your landlord doesn’t say, "Well, because you’re only getting paid 55%, you can pay me 55% of the rent."

So everybody else is asking you to pay full fee based on that $2,000 worth of dentistry, right? So what ends up happening is when you look at these practices, they don’t even make a 20% margin. In other words, you would be better off working for somebody else because when you work for somebody else, you will get paid at least 30%.

Here, you’re working so hard, but when everybody else is paid—the rent, the employees, etc.—you are left with 20%, 15%. What’s the point? And why are you getting paid so little? Because the PPO is taking a big fat chunk out of what you make right off the bat. Am I making sense?

Ben Tuinei: Oh yeah.

Naren Arulrajah: So imagine you grow—if you want to grow, you know, 10%, and you keep adding more and more of these PPO patients, you are not growing—you are shrinking. Because you are doing, you know, $2,000 worth of dentistry. And let’s say your cost is 70%, that means your cost to take care of that patient and do $2,000 worth of dentistry is, you know, $1,400. But you are only collecting $1,100.

So you’re now minus $300. You get the next patient—now it’s minus $600. So thinking that any new patient is a good patient is not true. There are patients who are costing you money. You are better off—instead of, you know, wasting $300 every year on that patient—telling that patient when they first show up, "Hey, here is a hundred-dollar bill, this is my gift to you, thank you very much. But, you know, maybe we are not the right practice for you."

But 90% of practices do this, right? They’re on the PPO plan and they just keep doing dental work where they’re getting paid less than what they make. And then who’s getting squeezed?

Not the landlord. Not the employee. Not the associate. Not the supplies companies—they don’t give you a discount. You are the one getting squeezed. So what’s the point?

The only option they have is to work harder. "Oh, let’s see double the number of patients in the same amount of time." You know, uh, "Let’s, you know, work harder and harder to kind of keep up." So that’s not like…

So in other words, 10 years later, they’re working a lot more than they worked when they first started. It should be the opposite, right? As your skills grow, your capabilities grow, you should be doing art—meaning you should be creating wonderful outcomes, and you should be paid for that. But you can’t be paid for that.

So I think thinking that any new patient is a good patient is not necessarily true. Even ads have the same issues. Usually people who are clicking on ads are looking for a deal. So a lot of times they’re like, "Oh, they want the cheapest, cheapest, cheapest." I’m not saying all ads are bad, but usually, you know, if somebody can’t find somebody organically and then they’re resorting to ads, their expectation is all about money, money, money, money, money—not necessarily quality.

So not every patient is a good patient. So really think—it’s not about adding revenue, it’s adding profitable revenue to your business.

Ben Tuinei: Mm-hmm. I like that. I’m kind of drawn back—uh, thinking back to when I first started my career in dentistry way back in—well, it wasn’t too long ago—2007. And interestingly, you know, the first set of advertisements that were being done—and this is nothing against these advertising concepts—my observation and what we were doing is that we were doing the $39 cleaning, exam, and X-rays—you know, heavily discounted dentistry.

And guess what we got? We got the price shoppers. We got the patients that were really hard to deal with—ones that wanted free, free, free, free. And I was partially running part of the marketing department because I ran the insurance department, which most of the patients that came in had insurance.

And so, you know, when we kind of looked at both of those dynamics, I realized that I needed to tell the marketing division that this is not working.

Ben Tuinei: All these people—and these are the ones that are giving us the worst reviews—and that’s more so because they have high expectations, um, but very little commitment on actually wanting to pay for anything, right? And then the second thing, before we go to the next here—and you can chime in on this, Naren, if you want—is, uh, I stumbled upon these cooperatives of business owners. You know, when you go to strip malls, Naren?

Naren Arulrajah: Yeah.

Ben Tuinei: And you have those businesses kind of working together where it’s like, “Okay, if you go to that business, just mention my name, they’ll give you a discount,” right? You can have the local business discount when you do that. Well, we stumbled upon this concept where we started, um, using Costco, Target, Nordstrom—um, giving gift cards for new patients for these institutions.

And we replaced the $39 cleaning, exam, and X-rays with that. And what we found is that we attracted a higher, um, IQ of a patient, right? People that are willing to spend more money, that have more discretionary income. But we tested doing that with Dollar General, right? Um, Walmart—and nothing against these stores. I know that these stores are critically important for those with low income. So nothing against them.

But what we found is that when we changed the branding partners to the discount-mindset branded programs, that’s what we got as a business—we got people that were entirely discount-minded. Compared to people that come to you because there’s an affiliation between you and Costco, you and Nordstrom, right? And they see that on your advertisements. Different quality people. Different people that have different motivations. That have more discretionary income. They haggle less.

Before we move on to the next question, what are some of your thoughts with that approach in terms of kind of speaking to what you just said about not every patient is a good patient? A good patient is defined by somebody that’s attracted to us, that’s in alignment with what our vision is, right? Our missions are as it pertains to quality and who we are as people.

Naren Arulrajah: You know what, I a hundred percent agree with you, Ben. Um, you know, if you are running, you know, $39 specials, you’re going to attract patients—like you said—who are price shoppers, who don’t care about quality, who will nickel and dime you, and they’ll just drive you nuts. It’s kind of the same as the PPO patients.

And the funny thing is, the world is a big place. Half the people don’t have any insurance. And after COVID specifically, many of them care about their health like they have never cared about their health before, and they’re spending money. It’s the same people who go on vacations. It’s the same people who go and have concierge medicine. It’s the same people who get extra things like pain management, and they spend out-of-pocket money because they don’t want to live with the pain, right?

It’s the same people who, you know, get hair transplants. It’s the same people who go to a plastic surgeon. Same people who go to Botox. So they’re everywhere around us. I think more than half the people today spend money—their own money—a lot of it, on beauty and health.

The thing is, you have to start going after them. And you have to realize—the way you attract them is very different from the way you attract people who want cheap or free. Cheap or free people—it’s like you dig a hole and they’re like, “Dig some more.” You dig some more, and they’re like, “No, no, no, dig some more.” And you’re going more and more into the hole, you know, because that’s what’s happening, right?

Because PPO, for example, is paying what they used to pay 30 years ago—today. I mean literally, right? But your expenses have gone up seven times, ten times. How do you make it work? It’s like that digging-the-hole analogy. So, yeah, I totally agree with you, Ben.

Ben Tuinei: No, I love that. I love that. I think your mind on this whole concept of marketing, in terms of identifying the right type of patient for your type of practice, is so important.

So what comes to mind next, Naren, is—you know, in the old days of dentistry, back in the ’60s, ’70s, and before that—the whole concept was, you just hang your shingle and people show up, right?

So what about this concept of, “If I build it, they will come”? How does that apply—or not apply—to today’s world of dentistry?

Naren Arulrajah: Yeah, that’s a great question. And, um, I do think we all want a quick fix. We all want a simple answer, right? I mean, this is why products like Google Maps are so popular. Like, you just punch in the address. You don’t need to figure out which roads have traffic. You don’t even need to figure out what roads to take. It literally will do it for you. And the next version of that is like Tesla self-driving, right? Where it literally, it’ll drive it.

So we all want that quick fix. Unfortunately, your customers are not robots, they’re not cars—they’re human beings. So you need to understand, how does a human being go about, you know, finding you, liking you, and choosing you—especially the one who is willing to pay money out of pocket, especially the one who is not coming to you just because it’s free or you are the cheapest provider out there, right?

So what is the customer journey? First, they have to find you, right? That’s where SEO comes in. You better show up when they’re looking for what they need—implants, veneers, sedation. If they’re afraid of going to the dentist and they want pain-free dental. So you are showing up when they are typing in the things they need. That’s step number one.

Second is they have to like and trust you. So they go to that landing page. Let’s say they typed in "crooked tooth," they end up on your Invisalign page. Now they have choices. Remember, they’re going to give somebody $5,000. Who is that somebody? You or your competition. They need to be convinced. And remember, the only way you can convince them—you don’t know who they are. They’re on your website. You know, Google doesn’t send you their phone numbers, right?

So now they’re on your website—you need to convince them. So have cases, right? The work you have done. Maybe 2, 3, 4, 5—as many as you can. Collect them. Like some people collect stamps or some people collect watches—start showcasing them, right? You don’t have to have 17 on day one. Like, add one every month, every quarter, whatever you can.

And those cases—especially include the after full-face picture. Why? Because that’s what they’re buying. They’re buying that beautiful smile. They are buying that outcome. And keep doing that. I know sometimes people do have testimonials, but they have no writeups. So they haven’t made it into cases. I mean—sorry—they have before and afters, but they have no writeups, or they only have close-up pictures.

So close-up—dentists who went to school will understand and appreciate the nuances, but the average person doesn’t know why they need to give $20,000 for this close-up. But you want to have the full-face after picture. And 99% of the time, nobody has a problem smiling when they have a beautiful smile.

Of course, they’re not going to give you the full-face before picture. You don’t need it for that—you can use the close-up.

So get them to like you and trust you. And of course, case is a very powerful way to do that. And then finally, they still don’t trust you because it’s your website. You own it. They’re going to type in your name or practice name, and they will read your Google reviews.

So if your Google reviews are wonderful, that’s another, you know, brownie point in your favor—that’s going to make them sign up. So do that. You know, figure out your Google reviews. I tell all my clients—get 10 or more five-star reviews a month. And I will teach a technique.

Naren Arulrajah: If anyone is interested, they could just go to the Insurance Untangled website and, you know, just send a query saying, "I want to learn how do I get 10 or more five-star love letter Google reviews," and we’ll send it to you.

So that’s the process. Once you understand it, it’s easy, right? Like, you know, a lot of times when you do something and you just memorize, you don’t succeed. Why do you think a lot of people—a lot of young people—hate our education system? Because they don’t teach them why they are learning what they’re learning.

Like, if you start making math fun and say, “Hey, this is why you’re learning addition—you go to a store, and you want to make sure you’re getting the right amount of change back,” right? Or you’re buying a house and you need to know interest rates and, you know, those kinds of things. So you know what you’re getting into.

If you give people the why, they are more into it. Now, the problem is a lot of doctors don’t take even two minutes to understand the why—which is the journey of the patient—and then zoom in on it. Once you understand it, everything makes sense. Your team gets on board, your marketing company gets on board, and then you can ask the question:

Am I ranking for more keywords this month? Am I ranking for at least 100 keywords? Because I know if I’m not ranking for 100 keywords, I’m not in the top 5% who gets 95% of the free traffic. Those kinds of questions. I can look at my landing pages—they suck. What are we doing to fix it? Where are the cases? Can we put a plan in place to get them?

“Oh, I’m only getting two reviews a month.” I had a conversation with a potential client—or a new client—who’s only getting two reviews. How are we going to fix it? How do we get to 10 reviews a month?

So once you understand, it’s so easy to work on it.

Ben Tuinei: Yeah, that’s amazing there. You know, I always—I guess in this environment that we live in today, what you’re describing to me is that building a business, especially a dental practice, it takes a lot of work to be visible, right?

It’s not like the old days where you could quite literally hang up a shingle and people would show up for care, right? These days there’s a lot of competition, and people have choices, and there’s this whole thing called the internet that people take time to review and use. It’s a different world.

Naren Arulrajah: Exactly. And you can complain and complain and complain—“Well, the world sucks”—but it is what it is. You know, maybe we can go to Mars and maybe it’ll be different in Mars, but on planet Earth, we have humans, and they behave certain ways, and we have to understand it and play into it.

Ben Tuinei: Yeah. And I think this is actually an opportunity. I mean, we live in a different world, but it’s not a bad thing—it’s actually a very positive thing. Because it’s very apparent that very few business owners are actually stumbling upon what works from a marketing perspective, right? Or an operational perspective.

So the few that dominate Google—they own it. They don’t just compete. They own it. Most people don’t.

Naren Arulrajah: Exactly. I mean, this is true in life, right? The 80/20 rule. You know, 1% of Americans control the majority of the wealth. Like, all this is true, right? This idea that 5% get all the free traffic—it’s just how the world works, right? Always, very few people keep all the spoils.

So again, we don’t work with everyone. So in the entire U.S.—we currently have around 400, 500 doctors. At the most, we would have, you know, 2,000 doctors, which is 2%. So even though technically we could work with 5%, we will stop. You know, our goal is to stop at 2%, because we want our clients to crush it—our clients to own their markets.

Ben Tuinei: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good idea—not to oversaturate a concept, especially when the concept is not being heavily utilized or considered by most anyway.

Naren Arulrajah: Exactly.

Ben Tuinei: So no, this is great. This is amazing stuff, Naren. And so, you know, I know we’re kind of running up against the end of the episode today, but just as we wrap up—quick question about… You know, I think it’s a mistake for any practice owner—even if you’re busy, right?—because money runs out and new patient flow could run out if you’re not doing what it takes to kind of stay ahead of that game.

So speak to—answer this question regarding a balanced marketing strategy. Why should we have a balanced marketing strategy, and why should we work on it on a regular basis and not give up on it, even though times might be good for some people?

Naren Arulrajah: Absolutely. Um, I agree. I think a balanced marketing strategy is important. So the way I would think about it is—you have a foundation. The foundation should be SEO. It attracts the right kind of patients at the lowest possible cost, you know, and they trust you from the time they say hello because you showed up organically. So that’s the foundation.

Now, it won’t work for everyone, but I do think those listening could be in that 5%. And, um, you know, I really think that’s where you start. So you want to make sure you’re ranking for 100 or more keywords. And then you are also doing the other things we talked about—landing pages with cases, the 10 or more Google reviews—to complete the entire buying cycle.

Then on top of that, I would add ads strategically. So for example, you know, hey, we are only doing one case of Invisalign a month. We want to get it to two. So, hey, let’s spend some money. Ads are very profitable, so we’ll spend some money—even though an SEO patient is, you know, one-tenth or one-fifth the cost of an ad patient, even after spending five times more, you still make a profit.

So you’re like, okay, I’ll spend a little bit of money for those kinds of specific things for a specific time. So that would be my top-up strategy.

PPOs—most of you have PPOs, like 90% of you. So I would start dropping the worst one first. Then the next worst one. And then keep the ones that are not abusing you as much. You know, it’s kind of—I’m sad to say—it’s like you have, you know, three abusive people, and you get rid of the worst-worst-worst, and you live with the one who’s not too bad.

So that’s the way I would think about PPOs. Of course, there might be reasons why you want to stay on PPO plans—certain plans. For example, let’s say you are in a town with a lot of government employees and many of them are on Delta, and perhaps you can convince Delta to make you a Premier provider and you stay there. So there could be exceptions like that.

But slowly, surely, rely less on the worst PPO plans. Build a foundation of SEO. And then use ads to top it up. Kind of think of ads like dessert—as in, when needed, you have it, but you don’t do it too much, because you know it’s not healthy.

And yeah, I would recommend—if you really are curious about this and want us to do an audit on your marketing, you know: Are you attracting the right patients? Are you making them want to do business with you, with your landing pages?—all of these things—book a marketing strategy meeting.

The link is: insuranceuntangled.com/msm 

And I really think that would be very helpful. So that’s my suggestion—book that meeting, I’ll give it to you. And even if you don’t work with us, that’s totally okay. The fact that you are more educated, you understand everything we talked about today—I think that will pay a dividend in the long run.

Ben Tuinei: I agree. I mean, we have a lot of people—friends and clients and colleagues—that have done that marketing strategy meeting, and I can tell you that they walk away feeling a great sense of appreciation with the value that they receive, right?

So, as a listener, there’s two things that were offered today. Number one: some tips on getting those love letter five-star reviews and how to do that effectively. As well as a marketing strategy meeting, which you can request—both—if you just visit insuranceuntangled.com/msm  for the marketing strategy meeting.

Naren, I just want to take a minute to thank you so much. I mean, every episode that we do, I learn so much—so many more new things. And the insights that you have are just—I mean, there’s no comparison compared to most experts in this field here.

So thank you for that amazing wisdom that you shared with us. And I also want to take a minute to thank our listeners for joining us again today on another amazing episode of the Insurance Untangled Podcast.

If you liked today’s episode, give us some love—give us a five-star review or give us some feedback as well on any social media platform or any podcast platform where we appear. And don’t forget to share our website with those that might find interest in our content. Again, insuranceuntangled.com, and then /msm for that marketing strategy meeting.

Folks, it’s been great being with you today, and until we meet next time, we wish all of you the very best of success.

Take care now.